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Tell Us What You Think
name: Ann Levin
email: ann.m.levin@boeing.com
Wednesday, 10-Feb-1999 14:22 PST
Like "god" has a favorite team!!!
name: Jim Kelly
email: jwkelly1@pdq.net
Wednesday, 10-Feb-1999 18:57 PST
Are you offended by public displays of religiosity by pro athletes?
Yes I am, but maybe as much pressure should be brought to bear on the TV
coverage of these huddles as on the league.
Should professional leagues such as the NFL take steps to prevent "prayer huddles" or other religious displays by its prayers during official game times?
They are only responsible to act in the best interests of the stockholders (owners). If these huddles start driving down profits then they will act to prevent them, on the other hand, if they tend to increase profits then will (at least covertly) encourage them.
Do public religious displays by players during or immediately after game time fall under the purview of the First Amendment?
No, remember the constitution protects us from acts of the government not those of individuals (or business).
Do you think that public religious belief by athletes threatends the inclusive nature of sports?
Yes, but that is a highly qualified yes. I think most people are too busy cheering or licking their wounds about the "play" or "game" to be significantly influenced by these displays. I suspect that these displays are noticed more by the religious right and atheists (both are minorities) than the average viewer.
Are you concerned that "spirit filled" players may be manipulated by religious groups for certain financial or political ends?
No, most people who reach celebrity status eventually attach their name to a cause. My experience suggests they end up "preaching to the choir"
Does a public profession of religious belief by a professional athlete increase that individual's stature as a role model for youth?
Yes, our culture is well trained to believe that a religious profession adds to one's good works. Even marginal pratitioners of religion will be moved by such acts.
A supportive ad in USA TODAY saluted Green Bay Packers "Minister of Defense" Reggie White, saying "There is no finer role model for youth today than this committed husband, father and Christian." Do you agree?
I Disagree, but then again it is a minority view I hold. The real argument of why so many of his "virtues" and morals are good is hidden from view.
Finally IMHO, as a member of AA why is this an issue for AA? In other words how does this apply to church and state issues? I am not opposed to the "stated" purpose of AA being expanded, but I do think it should be a conscious decision incorporated into our charter. As a member of AAchat the list is moderated to keep the content related to our goals (some exceptions noted). Would this be an acceptable topic for AAchat? By raisng this question I am not trying be negative (that would be politically incorrent), but I am trying to point out that I have noticed changes in the direction of our leadership. Perhaps others have opinions (pro or con) concerning this matter?
Thanks for reading and considering the voice of a member.
Jim
name: don
email: dondisc@aol.com
Wednesday, 10-Feb-1999 19:23 PST
Ever since I noted the first display of someone on a sports field crossing themselves or kneeling and bowing their head I have been upset. Those items and pre-game prayers by players are not only disturbing but totally meaningless and serve to upset a sport enjoyed my everyone.
There are many churches where they can go before a game, or a fight, and pray. Then afterwards, if they aren't too tired, they can go again. We DO NOT need public displays.
If this conduct keeps up there will come a time where someone will be cutting the head off of a chicken or laying on the ground and rolling around after a touchdown or a knockout at a prize fight.
What would be the general opinion if some players at a football or baseball game rolled out some rugs, kneeled down and bumped their heads on the ground after a touchdown or home run?
name: Doug Ittner
email: qwenzo@hotmail.com
Wednesday, 10-Feb-1999 20:31 PST
Second rate, unknown players can try for the
religious card to lure publicity and commercial
sponsorships. I have yet to see a committed
Christian athlete live the life of poverty that
their Christ espoused as a good lifestyle, not
when these players make hundreds of thousands
of dollars every game. They are just hypocrites
and play the public for fools.
name: G. Stanley Brown
email: gstanbrown@aol.com
Wednesday, 10-Feb-1999 21:18 PST
Good luck.
Stopping people from advocating their favorite life style would be (is) a losing battle. Anything will be justified "because I feel like it."
name: Rick Harle
email: rharle@athens.net
Wednesday, 10-Feb-1999 23:29 PST
I am transplanted to the sunny south and have been abused
by the so baptists. While I am not an atheist, I applaud
your efforts to keep church and state separate.
I was beginning to think I was the only one offended
by all the religious spouting during the NFL season and playoffs.
Kinda funny the Falcons Robinson being busted on
a sex offense....being a self professed xtian and all.
Regards
Rick
name: Randall Reiss
email: randalljr@netscape.net
Thursday, 11-Feb-1999 00:13 PST
These displays have more to do with the "check me out"
philosophy that is rampant in today's sports than it does
with any sincere form of thanks. If after a good play, why
can't the player come to the sidelines and do their thing in private?
Of course the results of this might be problematic in a sport such
as basketball...as team "A" player is genuflecting or better yet,
recieving
communion on the sideline, team "b" player is running the length of
the court and jamming the
ball up to his elbow. The again, with the way a lot of these religinoids behave
between games, why not have confession as the halftime feature?
name: Adrienne
email: adriennebowley@hotmail.com
Thursday, 11-Feb-1999 04:40 PST
This current trend is annoying AND offensive!
Do these players thank the QB who threw the TD
pass? Do they credit the other player who passed
the basketball to help them make that 3-pointer?
A player's atheletic prowess is the result of
his/her hard work and that of their teammates.
When will they realize that and act appropriately?
Do they realize, also, who ultimately pays their
outrageous salaries? This behavior is similar to
patients who credit a god and a saviour for their
recovery, instead of acknowledging the doctors and
researchers who really made their recovery
possible. Bugs the hell out of me! Get real,
people!
name: Barb Reiland
email: bfreiland@cavemen.net
Thursday, 11-Feb-1999 08:44 PST
The only professional sport I have followed in recent years
has been the NASCAR Winston cup series. Winston Cup champion
Jeff Gordan -- sponsor Dupont -- totally alienated me by his
religiosity; I am a Gordan anti-fan.
After a victory a few years back, he came out of his car in
victory circle, praising goD and asking how much money he had
just won. A role model for our youth? I think not!
name: George Ricker
email: gricker@iu.net
Thursday, 11-Feb-1999 10:44 PST
Making "God" responsible for one's successes on the athletic field -
or anywhere else for that matter - is a convenient way to avoid personal
responsibility. Personally, I'm surprised that more religious groups aren't
offended by such gratuitous displays. Far from adding any credibility to the
idea of god(s) or the religions spawned by that idea, such displays only serve
to cheapen them.
That doesn't particularly bother me, but I would think it troublesome for
individuals who claim to place great confidence in such beliefs.
name: Robert Dover
email: dover@nortelnetworks.com
Thursday, 11-Feb-1999 15:45 PST
Sports should be about competing ABILITIES,
not DIVINITIES!
name: Geoff Fridd
email: geoff@txmq.com
Thursday, 11-Feb-1999 21:04 PST
Unfortunately, I don't think there is much one can do
about this. Our goal should be to improve education
in reason and logic at all levels; when we achieve that
magic moment, any proselytizing athlete would be laughed
at. As it is, the more educated of the population
already laugh at them (the stereotypical athlete, at least
in baseball and football, is not seen as a role model for
educational achievement, but more as a muscular dunce.
name: Brian B. Meyer
email: bmmagic@earthlink.net
Thursday, 11-Feb-1999 21:28 PST
Reggie White publically insulted millions of people he has never met. How this could qualify him for anything but the label "stupid" is beyond me. It is my opinion that the majority of public displays of religious belief by professional atheletes is nothing but an attempt to get public recognition and praise for their so-called beliefs. Crying "baaa baaaa baaaa" on public television seems to get a rise out of the herd.
name: Phil Yabut
email: pyabut@mason.gmu.edu
Friday, 12-Feb-1999 00:03 PST
As a "practicing" atheist, I don't find prayer
necessary to get through life, of course. Yet I'm
not really offended by watching the Packers pray
on the sidelines.
The spirit of the First Amendment overrides
whatever opinions I may have about someone else's
beliefs, no matter how ridiculous they may seem to
me. Professional athletes are Americans, too, and
they do not represent our government. Let them
pray if they want to.
name: Donna Rail
email: pdrichey@akos.net
Friday, 12-Feb-1999 17:31 PST
Why do boxers talk about Jesus at all? Didn't he
say that if someone strikes you, you should turn
the other cheek?
name: Mark Bare
email: geophyte@usit.net
Saturday, 13-Feb-1999 08:54 PST
The problem here isn't if they 'thank god' or whatever deity they beleive was responsible for their finding the courage and drive to succeed... it is the acclaim that sports figures get and the influence they wield. Remember the large number of religious sports clubs and all the hoopla put on 'god willing we'll win' attitudes in your public education and here is where the harm is done because curious minds are hidden due to a need to fit in and be accepted. The ones that go against the grain are considered wierd and often are outcast loners (remember the boy that opened fire on what he considered prayer warriors). I could care less if they need a deity crutch to get by.... I just want them to be mature enough to not lash out at others that don't share their habit.
name: Chloe Fitzgerald
email: chloefitz@hotmail.com
Saturday, 13-Feb-1999 13:27 PST
One of the major drawbacks to being a supporter of First Ammendment rights is the fact that often times I have to listen to things that are to me offensive and I have to view things that I believe to be inappropriate. So even though I have a strong opposition to the likes of Reggie White and company I have to allow them the right to state their opinion.
This also ensures that I have the right to boycott everything that has to do with the Green Bay Packers and any periodical that chooses to run one of Mr. White's propaganda ads. My support in First Ammendment rights also allows for me to publically oppose the views of Mr. White and Assoc. and quite frankly I wait for the day that someone finally get's fed up with the tactics of the more radical Christian groups and finally gets around to organizing and amassing the secular denizens of the U.S. so that another voice can be heard. I dream of a day when a group of secular athletes band together and present themselves as positive role models for the American populas who as athletes just go out and play the game and earn their paychecks.
name: Eric Busch
email: EBusch2048@aol.com
Saturday, 13-Feb-1999 17:48 PST
While everyone has the right to express their views in this great contry of ours; I consider it disingenuous for pro atheletes to use their position of promence to preach sectarian religious views. They would never get away with thanking Amway for their win; or expressing political views durring post game interviews. Why is piety any different?
name: Becky
email: beckys@icom.ca
Sunday, 14-Feb-1999 16:29 PST
I believe that everyone, including professional atheletes are entitled to their own beliefs so long as they don't infringe upon anyone else.
I think that today's professional athletes are pushing the envelope. They are using their status as role model to sway their fans. One can only hope that the fans have the self-confidence to think for themeselves, and believe in the athlete, and not his dogma.
name: Andy
email: andynray@hotmail.com
Sunday, 14-Feb-1999 18:18 PST
Greetings,
I don't expect my comments to be selected but here goes anyway.
I am not from the USA so confess up front that I am not intimately connected to the situation ovet there. Yet surely the expression of Christian faith should never be suppressed in this context. As a Christian (not a fundo or right-winger BTW), I believe that expressions of anti-Christian atttiudes fill our lives and the lives of our children continuously through various avenues. Are we going to suppress this as well and thus aim for an a-spiritual utopia all round? I don't believe that you can suppress one without the other without seeing the pendulum simply swinging from one side to the other. As a Christian I have "in my face" athiestic attitudes all the time, well, so be it. It interests me and baffles me that when Christian attitudes are found "in your face" people want it suppressed. It just doesn't sound consistent to me.
Regards,
Andy
name: Robert Gilmer
email: rsgilmer@unity.ncsu.edu
Monday, 15-Feb-1999 10:45 PST
When I see a sports figure thank God for making a
touchdown (I am a football fan), I think that he is
short changing himself by not giving himself the credit
for his accomplishment. However, it is his right to
hold any views that he wishes. That is the first amendment.
When religious players attempt to set themselves up as
role models, that is also the first amendment. They can
do that if they wish. It is the responsibility of the child
and the parent to accept or reject that figure as a role model. Also the
first amendment.
Does the public display of religion from atheletes fall under
the purview of the first amendment? It does and it does not. A
person is free to choose what religion, if any, they want to
belive, in that way it the first amendment supports that behavior.
When an athelete goes to great lengths to proselytize others, that does
not fall under the first amendment church/state separation, unless
it directly applies to government sponsored agencies (such as schools).
Yes, I agree that some sports figures go too far. Yes, I agree that
religious sports figures should not be chosen as role models for children.
However, everybody is entitled to their own belief system. That is the first
amendment.
name: MSL
email: mslong@hemisfear.com
Tuesday, 16-Feb-1999 13:38 PST
I think public religious displays should be allowed, but I also think that they show that person's ignorance.
If you want to preach or even believe that garbage, it's your choice, but when it goes into the Fascist-leaning category, it needs to be stopped.
name: Molly
email: mpecoula@interaccess.com
Wednesday, 17-Feb-1999 15:03 PST
The press will cover public, enthusiastic christian prayer at sporting events in a positive light because it's christian. If it were moslim or hebrew or even hindu, there would be a completely different reaction.
name: Jennings Carlisle
email: cultus@gvtc.com
Wednesday, 17-Feb-1999 19:00 PST
This public touting of religion disgusts me. It makes
me sick. I hate it. It is mindless and I hate mindlessness.
name: Carletta Sims
email: csims@atheists.org
Wednesday, 17-Feb-1999 23:21 PST
The idea of prayer contradicts the essence of the training required for the game, period. It essentially tells the audience, and the world that the individual is really not prepared to do their best, though they worked out and trained, doing strenuous exercises that specifically accentuate their ability to perform to the maximum. The prayer huddles, etc. blatantly displays weakness by the players, to the extent that they must beg, hope, wish that they can do something beyond their physical training abilities. The masculinity of the game, exhibiting the muscle, prowess, power, becomes diminished tremendously. Each player, or team, is essentially asking the same diety (God), to give them autonomous power and strength to "beat" the other team; the other team requests, or begs for, the same thing. So, the end results may send a message that this diety really and truly preferred, or gave special privileges of strength to the winning team, and that the losing team just hadn't pleased him enough. It becomes a coin toss, really, taking away from the thrill of the brutes thrashing, butting, slamming, impacting into the opponent, which is the enticement of the game.
Also, it is a direct insult to the diverse religious groups who may not have the same belief system as the players, and certainly disengages the Atheists' enthusiasm. As has been said, it definitely pressures individual players to go along with the majority, which is an unnecessary psychological deterrent to winning in the first place. Definitely, keep religion off the field.
name: K.C. Nieman
email: kcnieman@compuserve.com
Thursday, 18-Feb-1999 00:51 PST
It's bad enough that we have to endure the "John 3:16" signs at countless college and pro football games, but now we have openly pious players, like Reggie White and Deion Sanders, preaching to us like they were pope-like televangelists. I watch football for the entertainment-value, not to see which player is going to thank God for his touchdowns first. It's beyond offensive to me. By the way, has anyone ever counted the times Evander Holyfield says Jesus in a typical interview? It's quite impressive!
name: The Godless Girl
email: GodlessGrl@aol.com
Thursday, 18-Feb-1999 22:06 PST
Although his words annoy me, I think White has every right to say what he wants.
I'm really thrown off by the results of question 3, prayer during games. It's protected by the constitution, but players shouldn't be forced to join in them.
name: Gregory J. Payne
email: gjpayne@execulink.com
Friday, 19-Feb-1999 00:49 PST
What makes these athletes think god helped them score? Does this mean god plays favourites if one scores more? Is this a strictly American phenomenon? I can't remember ever seeing a hockey player (yes I know there are American players) drop to his knees in prayer after scoring. Not even Christians such as Mike Gartner do this. I don't watch a lot of soccer but I don't recall any group prayers after a goal.
name: mike
email: mchild@gfherald.infi.net
Friday, 19-Feb-1999 03:08 PST
Gentlemen,
Interesting survey. This is the first time I have
been aware of this site. (I was directed here by a
USENET message.) Most of the questions are simple
personal opinion ones that require no comment.
Three however, need individual attention.
Suggesting that the various sports leagues, such
as the NFL, NBA, etc, seek to limit public
religious displays may be legal, but it is clearly
not practical. Professional sports is one of the
few areas of commerce where the individual
employee has more influence on the business than
does the owner. The negative public response that
would be directed at the league if it tried to ban
public expressions of faith would be much more
trouble than it is worth. Like it or not, the
number of fans that are religious believers far
exceeds those that are atheists. As the saying
goes, money talks!
The question of whether public religious displays
during sporting events falls under the purview of
the 1st Amendment is totally ambiguous. If this
is meant to suggest that this right is protected
from interference by government action, then
clearly the answer would be YES. However, if it
is meant to suggest that the general public should
somehow be protected from seeing such behavior
then , obviously, the answer is NO. There is no
constitutionally possible interpretation of the
1st Amendment that can suggest that an individual
can be protected from religious speech, even if an
individual deems it to be offensive. As Justice
Holmes once stated, offensive speech is the only
type that NEEDS constitutional protection.
Finally, asking if public religious displays some
how threatens the "inclusive nature of sports" is
totally ridiculous. There is NO inclusive nature
of sports. Professional sports today is one of
the last places where ABILITY is the defining
nature of the endeavor. Race, culture, gender,
belief structure, age.... all mean NOTHING in the
competitive arena of sports. Even being a
publically known criminal does not bar one from
the field of competition. (Mike Tyson being the
perfect example. In jail for assault.. and he can
still box.) So, if an atheist wishes to compete,
and he has the talent, he can surely do so. If the
religious convictions of his fellow competitors
somehow bothers HIM, then he just better learn to
deal with it. After all, in our daily lives we
have had to learn to deal with people with all
kinds of strange beliefs such as UFO's, crystal
healing, psychic predictors, and astrology. That
is part of the price that we must pay for having
the freedoms that we all enjoy.
name: dave hanson
email: militantatheist@yahoo.com
Friday, 19-Feb-1999 23:53 PST
the third question is unclear..it depends on the situation. after the game, i don't think pro leagues should care. however, they should not endorse it, and it should be completely voluntary. if coaches go into the locker room and instead of a pep talk say a prayer, then i do have a problem with it.
when the only thing mentioned after evander holyfield beats the living crap out of somebody is "oh, i just thank god. without him i'm nothing." well, "with" him, a lot of people are nothing very significant. and i'll bet the majority of his opponents have been christians, too. didn't help them. i don't get offended by players thanking god for there win, but do get annoyed when eugene robinson doesn't thank god after losing the super bowl (or getting arrested). it appears that when morten andersen makes an overtime field goal, to eugene it's god letting it go through, but if morten misses that kick, then that's morten's fault.
i do get offended when people, such as jamal anderson say something like "dan reeves is a good man. he's religious, goes to church. . . " it appears to me that jamal thinks that if dan didn't go to church, he'd be a bad man.
i don't think a national newspaper should be placing ads like the one with reggie white. why didn't the ad read "There is no finer role model for youth today than this committed husband, father, homophobe, bigoted, and fundamentalist Christian?" jeez, i wonder
players are being manipulated by religious groups. mark brunell donated $540,000 (10%) of his salary to campus crusade for christ or whatever it is. tony boselli, rashaan salaam and a number of other athletes have done that, giving 10% of their salary to the groups. unfortunately, it's beyond them. pat robertson has said that if you make $10,000, you should give $1000 to him. i'd be more concerned about those people than i would mark brunell. i have seen a few articles on espn's website about this in the past month about how annoying it is.
name: dave hanson
email: militantatheist@yahoo.com
Saturday, 20-Feb-1999 00:19 PST
i know that at the kingdome in seattle, all banners must "related to the game." (and, although this isn't professional athletes, it is professional sports.) i'm sure it's true in other sports facilities have a similar rule. yet, who has ever seen a "JOHN 3:16" sign ever removed from a pro stadium? i saw a player on monday night football score three touchdowns, each time handing the ball to his mother who happened to be sitting in an aisle that had a "JOHN 3:16" sign at the front of it at field level. it was there ALL THREE TIMES HE SCORED. either it ain't a rule in miami, or it isn't enforced. maybe somebody should ask the usher why that sign that isn't related to the game isn't being removed. or bring a sign that says "JOHN 3:16," place it at opposite end of the stadium as you are sitting(not that it would be necessary). then, in front of you, place a sign relating to something unrelated to the game but related to something that many christians disagree with--like atheism or evolution--on the other end, and see which one is taken down first.
name: R. Vincent Tuite
email: rvtnet@westol.com
Sunday, 21-Feb-1999 13:17 PST
There are fewer dumber statements than "I would like to thank god for our victory". The lack of common sense in this statement should be obviouis to all. Does this person blame satan for their loses? Did the other team which believes in the same god not pray to that god hard enough or in the right way?
name: Andrew Lancashire
email: llysfaen@bellatlantic.net
Sunday, 21-Feb-1999 19:07 PST
Mr. White may be a large human being but I'm afraid that every time he opens his mouth he shows the lack of use of the brain that his god gave him. To thank gods for what is accomplished by his team, the Green Bay Packers, only degrades the effort put forth by his coaches and team-mates.
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