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Nathan White Carol Batchelder is a very brave woman. I think we live in a very dangerous time in this country. The masses seem hell-bent, (if you'll pardon the pun), on taking over the government in the name of religion. They are not content to be able to believe and worship their god as they see fit. They want to ram their beliefs down everyone's throat. They do not realize that they will be opening a pandora's box if they succeed in taking over government, because even within the religious community there are many different beliefs. After the government take-over there will be fighting among themselves as to who has the true belief system. It will be like the religious wars in Europe that helped convince the founders of this country to keep religion out of government. History will repeat itself. It's a very sad situation. The religious say that there is but one god. I think there must be a god for every person, because no one has exactly the same beliefs. So instead of one god, there are many, many gods. People who feel that their own beliefs are the true beliefs are just expressing their own exaggerated egos. Entered on: Wednesday, December 1st at 6:27PM CST Kyle Michaelis Nebraska USA skylewalker@yahoo.com While in total agreeance with the columnist about the seperation of Church and state, I find that this battle over the "Table Rock" Cross is a quite trivial one. The author's militant attitude does no great service to the above cause, she merely makes atheists seems as fanatical as any fundamentalist religious sect. It's time to accept that religion is not the greatest of evils; it does not need to be destroyed. While there may be a degree of "corruption" in this situation, I believe we should stick to the fights that are truly important, such as keeping religion out of public schools. Next year, with all of the campaigning, is going to be an important one concerning religion in schools. The Republicans are going to go after this with all of their considerable propagandist might, and I hope someone's ready to speak reasonably and compassionately against this move. I definitely don't think that Carol Batchelder makes a very good represenative, though. We need to embrace those of Religious Persuasions and get them to realize that seperation of Church and state is beneficial to all and the most fundamental of American principles. Alienation and badgering of the "flock" is not going to accomplish this. I merely ask that everyone be reasonable and considerate of other's beliefs when these issues are debated. This is one basic lesson that both believers and atheists should take from the New Testament, its not complicated; treat others as you would wish to be treated, love your neighbor as you love yourself, and all that other mularcky. Entered on: Wednesday, December 1st at 7:14PM CST Herb Harms Evanston,Il USA HERBSTER1111@aol.com Carol's got guts. Where were all the Atheist guys around the Boise area when she was out there all by herself? Entered on: Wednesday, December 1st at 7:38PM CST Greg McDowell Clermont, Fl. USA gmcdowell@atheists.org First I'd like to say I'm very proud of Carol's efforts. It's not easy getting the nerve to protest alone. I know, I've done it. What I found out is there is very little to fear, because in my opinion, the opposition is composed of poorly informed cowards. Very few out of thousands will confront you face to face. They will hurl insults from afar as they continue on and increasing their distance. We must always protest. We have the superior intellect, let's show our superior intestinal fortitude. Entered on: Wednesday, December 1st at 8:05PM CST Danny M. Dunn Texas USA danmac@rise.net That Carol sure has a lot of spunk. I'm glad, for her sake, she was in Idaho and not here in Texas. 10,000 glassy eyed, shiny faced pentacostals and S. baptists from Tejas wouldn't have been so forgiving. In a crowd of that size in Texas there would have been more than enough screwballs to do harm to anyone that disagreed with their warped view of the world.Hats off to Carol, she has a lot more guts than I. As for me, I'll stay in the closet and write letters and send them through e-mail. I don't dare use the post office here cuz it's full of born-agains and floor floppers. Give 'em a chance and they'll preach to you right there on government property. Carol, YOU GO GURL,,,,Dan M Dunn Entered on: Wednesday, December 1st at 8:27PM CST Shawn Browning Lexington, KY USA sjn_browning@yahoo.com Atheists, agnostics, freethinkers, humanists--those of us that make up 10% of this country--don't picket and make ourselves known enough. Because of that most Christians think we are a tiny fraction. Carol was great, and totally right in making her opinions known. I am a grad student at Univ. of KY, and every morning I put up flier's on our departmental bulliten board. They are torn down by Christians every day, and every morning I replace them. We can all do something to make ourselves heard. Please do your part. Thanks. Entered on: Wednesday, December 1st at 8:47PM CST Eric Breitenstein ebreit@hotmail.com While I certainly commend Ms. Batchelder for her tenacity, I believe this brings to light a question that many people, atheists included, would rather not answer: Should atheists "work" the picket lines in order to promote atheists' civil rights and the separation of church and state? This is not an easy question to answer. I'm inclined to say no; that it is better to educate about, or at least warm believers up to, atheism. I find it of no use to simply tell %90 of the country that they are stupid because they believe in a god. In the end, that serves no purpose other than to inflame already derogatory opinions about atheism and to further add material for religionists to use against us. On the other hand, when instances such as the Table Rock Cross arise, some kind of visible presence can help. But only if it serves to educate. As atheists we are the last minority. Yet, unlike blacks, we have the power of organized religion against us. The fact is that if we, with all our collective intelligence, can't think of better ways to get out the message of what atheism really is AND is not, then it is only a matter of simple mathematics to show that more people will become religious because they will never see an alternative. Only through a constant presence in educating the people can we ever hope to get anywhere. Let's face it: laws on paper mean nothing if the people enforcing them are Christian and don't like you becuase you aren't. How can we educate people? As individuals, we can write letters to our newspapers (editors). I've even heard of one newspaper in Michigan that has both a religion and an atheist column! Increasing our presence in the form of publishing respectable books, magazines, etc. and getting them into libraries, schools, etc. is another way. Simply standing on a street corner is great, and I commend Ms. Batchelder, but unless we want to end up with a bunch of laws most people ignore (which is what we are approaching, as this story shows), we're going to have to teach people about what we truly stand for (i.e. that we are NOT the work of satan). And hold off on the insignificant stuff (as in what saying is on our currency) until we get people used to us at all. Entered on: Wednesday, December 1st at 9:24PM CST John A Baumgartner Hollister, Ca. USA JohnInHollister@webtv.net A Big HURRAY for Carol in Boise. It makes me feel proud of an atheist with such determination. Reading about her experience in Boise should rally us all. John A Baumgartner Entered on: Wednesday, December 1st at 10:18PM CST Gregory Tinkler Winston-Salem NC USA gtinkler@wfubmc.edu Kudos to the lone protestor. I have to say that she handled it extremely well considering... But I do have a bit of a beef with some things, and moreso how they tie into the public perception of atheists. When it's 10,000 to 1, some hotheaded comments are probably expected. I think that our lone representative did well, but probably could have contained herself a bit in some respects. (I haven't made up my mind about the whole "heckling" thing). BUT KEEP IN MIND as you go through life- The most horrendous lie perpetuated by the Xian religion is that morality can only come from acceptance of Xian doctrine. Perhaps even more insidious is the idea that only Xians can be nice (which is patently false,especially living here in Baptistville NC). However, I too often encounter those in the minority who do not help the situation at all, self included at times. In particular, I would like to direct this at a specific group. American Atheists. I have turned on your show when it is aired on public access and without fail, every time I watch it I turn it off about halfway through. The reason is that Ron Barrier, Ellen Johnson, and the other guy continually come off as, for lack of a cleaner expression, a bunch of jackasses. Instead of seizing the air time to make people question their beliefs and point out legitimate flaws in a timely and accessible fashion, they quickly degrade into a sort of "smack-talking" that is rarely equaled outside of fraternity drinking parties. Please, Mr. Barrier and Ms. Johnson, I understand how jaded we get. But anyone who has seen your show (and I have talked to a number of Xians and non-Xians about this) leaves with a bad taste in his or her mouth. Remember that one cannot gain acceptance by alienating the majority. Frequently the misconception of atheists is that we are a bunch of god-hating, loudmouthed, closeminded jerks. Let us not perpetuate these stereotypes. Entered on: Wednesday, December 1st at 11:23PM CST Jesse Card Monroe, Washington USA jester14m@aol.com I think what she did is great and I think that we should contribute in this way much more often. We need to rally and create a presence. I'd like to have a group that has an opinion that people might accidently recognize to associate you with an organization like "So you're an American Atheist?" Or "You're a Humanist?" My self, I'd like to sometime not to be a minority. Although I realize that this is basically not going to happen my lifetime, I'd like to see progress in my direction. In my school I have tried to start a small atheist group. It has met some of the greatest opposition in my life. My signs were torn down almost immediately and cost me a print cartridge and 50+ posters. It has been several weeks and I've still had only a maximum of three people at my meeting. I know of at least ten times taht many atheists in my school but they are just not interested. When people see them and know who I am, they become confused and ask me "What's an atheist?" which can either conclude in "Oh, I guess I am also." or offended "How do YOU know there is no god?" I have been physically threatened, verbally assaulted, and overall have felt trodden upon and mistreated. I'd love to have an opportunity to go to one of these large Atheist meetings in Salt Lake City or San Francisco next year. I'd like to see how it is run, get advice on forwarding my group. I'd like to become very proactive in Atheism yet, somehow, not become fundementalist in my trying to expand the Atheist viewpoint and belief. And, well, sorry to everyone as this is really long with no paragraphs and no clear point. Thanks. Entered on: Wednesday, December 1st at 11:29PM CST Robert Klusener Fresno, CA USA klusener@jps.net It seems to me that the war has been lost. Especially now at Christmas time, atheism is treated like a dirty secret. How can anyone believe that the US Government is really separated from the church? Perhaps it is time to use the example of the Scandinavian countries where the church is a part of the government bureaucracy. Costs are low and church attendance is less than a tenth, proportionately, what it is in the US. In the fight for church-state separation, atheists are forced into what is essentially a religious war. Religious wars never end. Entered on: Thursday, December 2nd at 7:46AM CST Terence Geoghegan Ventura, CA USA tg@goodjudgment.net Go get 'em, Carol! Brava! ˇQue coraje! And I'm no atheďst. Just an agnostic concerned about the separation of church and state. --Terence Geoghegan Ventura, CA Entered on: Thursday, December 2nd at 2:47PM CST Heather Stratton Chicago, Illinois United States Lilith523@aol.com I have nothing but the utmost respect for Ms. Batchelder; it takes a very special kind of courage to be one person standing against 10,000. I do not, however, approve of some of the comments that she made to some of the Christians in attendance. She should have the respect, not to mention the simple decency, to accept the fact that those people also have a right to choose their religion. Comments such as, "Save yourself, God won't help you," are completely unwarranted, and they make atheists look disrespectful and uncaring. That is something I would expect from a Christian. Also, I do harbor some doubt as to whether what the government did, albeit unscrupulous, can be construed as illegal. Even though there was only one bidder, the land hasn't technically belonged to the government since the 1970's. The government knows how to protect itself. I highly doubt that the cross will be removed any time soon. Entered on: Thursday, December 2nd at 3:58PM CST Kay Anaheim, CA USA kaysings@hotmail.com Ms. Bachelder has guts. I couldn't do what she did because I'm frankly pathetic at expressing myself in public. I AM very good in writing, however, and I've begun to do some letter-writing on the general subject of preserving our First Amendment exactly as written. If the RLPA passes, for instance, I think we can probably expect to see a huge push from the conservative christian/Republican camp to abolish it altogether. If a theocracy is what they want--and I think it is--I'm convinced they'll take any amount of rope they're given to that end. I used to think there are enough saner heads in positions of importance in this country who would prevail over the zealots, but I've changed my mind. And that is why I wrote to my California senator Dianne Feinstein expressing my intense opposition to the RLPA and urging her to vote NO on it. I also plan to write one to Sen. Barbara Boxer and perhaps to President Clinton, although I'm beginning to find him almost as sanctimonious and annoying as some Republicans. As for Carol Bachelder, while I gotta hand it to her for having the guts to do something--ANYthing--the last thing we atheists want is to come off looking just like another gang of roudy, disruptive extremists, which is what most christian activists think anyway. Kay Entered on: Thursday, December 2nd at 6:09PM CST G. Wesley Bennett Covert407@aol.com I agree with Ms. Batchelder, I believe that theists [Christians in particular] are generally "ignorant" of the atheist alternative and the foundation of atheistic thought. Public activism [although somewhat "dangerous"] is almost a necessity to "bring those horses to the watering hole". It is a principle component of Christianity, proselytizing and "witnessing" and it has been the foundation in that belief's popularity. In other words, they went out and converted with their actions and words. I believe that atheists must do the same. Yes, there may be some "sacrifices" along the way, but the courage of the saints and martyrs is what "convinced" and advanced theistic beliefs. Atheists also must display at least as much courage for their beliefs, or all our rhetoric will fall on deaf ears and blind minds. Entered on: Thursday, December 2nd at 8:08PM CST Michael Alexander 1127 N 198 St., Apt. A204 USA alexander@atheistcharity.org Why not have an outspoken atheist run for president? The goal is not to win but to put political commercials on television. I believe that the networks are not allowed to turn down political commercials and they have to offer you the best rates. Jesse Ventura only occasionally says pro-atheist stuff, so we need someone more outspoken on atheism than that. Entered on: Friday, December 3rd at 10:27AM CST Samuel Rivier Chicago USA HUMEanist@aol.com Okay, so this cross thing is overdoing it a bit. Even I think a lot of the things this organization fights for is a stretch as far as priority is concerned. But the reason I stick by this organization and its fights, as well as the somewhat frivolous fights of the ACLU, is that these groups are watchdogs. They cannot let down their guard. It must be heard that they are here, watching every little inch of this country. This way, most of those fundies out there will be too scared to try to illegally prostelytize. Entered on: Friday, December 3rd at 4:12PM CST Pete S As an atheist, I am continually reminding myself that it is impossible to prove a negative. In other words, I believe there is no god, but I cannot prove this anymore than religious people can prove he does exist. So if you accept this, then there really isn't much more to say as long as it doesn't interfere in our rights. This country allows us freedom to disbelieve anything we wish. Any discussion of the topic, especially with religious people crosses over a warning line my father told me years ago. He said "Never get in a pissing contest with a skunk" And truly, that is all it is. Pete S. from LA (Lower Alabama) Entered on: Saturday, December 4th at 10:49AM CST Stu Chisholm Roseville, MI USA DJStuCrew@ameritech.net While I applaud Carol for not "letting evil prevail by standing by and doing nothing," I am also a bit concerned about all of the attention that this one issue is getting. While the separation of church and state is indisputable, the ham-handed and possibly illegal way it was addressed by the "powers that be" was, in fact, an acknowledgement to address the problem. While the sale may have been shady, I think the piece of land the cross is on is virtually worthless for other uses, and the only people offended by it's sale to the Jaycees are those who would like to see the cross gone. While I am an atheist, I'm also a liberal and I, for one, could care less about the cross. It's presence will not alter my beliefs or anyone else's. The more we discuss it and bring the issue before the media, the more we elevate it in the public mind. (Not to mention that it makes the freethought community look like a bunch of Grinches!) Let them have their cross -- it is now NOT on public land or subsidized in any way by our taxes. Instead, let's tackle more offensive things... for instance, we missed a golden opportunity when the government was re-designing the paper currency: the removal of "In God We Trust." This is a more clear violation of church/state separation! There are many more that are far more compelling than this whole cross business. Entered on: Sunday, December 5th at 2:08AM CST Don Rivers Bellevue, WA drivers@uswest.net I think that hitting the picket line IS a great way to educate the public. Before the protesters hit the streets in Seattle, very few people knew what the WTO was, what the issues were, and why it mattered, even if you didn't agree with them. Of course it helps to have 40,000 people on your side. Entered on: Sunday, December 5th at 1:09PM CST Howard A. Pellett Anacortes, WA US cpellett@cnw.com My name is Howard Pellet and I am the President of the Humanists of North Puget Sound. Most of our membership is atheist. We believe that it is necessary for all members of our organization to do every thing possible to preserve the separation of church and state. We believe that to do less is to capitulate to the religious right and other forces that are working to tear down the wall of separation, deny women reproductive choice, pass school voucher legislation, etc., etc., etc. We write letters to the editor, join forces with other groups that are working on specific issues, attend debates, and protest. Whatever is necessary. Regards, Howard A. Pellett Entered on: Sunday, December 5th at 8:02PM CST Dwight Welch Saint Paul, MN USA universalist@hotmail.com I certainly applaud anyone who is willing to speak out and defend the separation of church and state. In my hometown in Montana, we have a creche on the county courthouse, and we had a UCC minister who challenged it, and it produced more hate mail for the poor man, more anger than any issue in years. But it seems there is a juggernaut ready to plow down the first amendment. vigilence and being open and public about the first is important. But I would raise some points of caution. In my hometown, it was a United Church of Christ minister who was willing to defend the first amendment. Never doubt the fact that there *are* religious folks in your community who care about separation and the constitution. We need christians, jews, any particular label to work to defend the first amendment. Secondly, the sort of comments (especially on the heckle concerning the son who died and was attending Boise State), not only was it cruel and uncalled for, it distracts from the real issue at hand: separation of church and state. Humanism affirms open discussion, debate, hashing over issues, free arguementation. Polemic, insults and taunts are not in the least humanistic. OF course I know rallies are not about dialogue really, but I think as much as we represent the issue of atheism, or separation of church and state or any issue, we should try to stick to the issues not polemic. Even when I agree with folks, polemic makes me want to dismiss them *heh*. I do admit that the issue of the cross hardly seems to be the biggest issue the group could be tackling, but one doesn't always pick one's battles, and it may raise legitimate questions. Is this cross and example of what generally goes one? One wants to battle on what one can win, what can gain support, and sometimes simply to be visible and raise the tough questions. So i fully support the work of Idaho Atheists, i think if they sought them they could find allies in the religious community to tackle separation issues in the schools, etc. which I imagine or would guess are infringed upon. Dwight a regular church goeing UU atheist Entered on: Tuesday, December 7th at 9:28PM CST Barb Reiland Carlsbad, NM USA bfreiland A great big YeeHaw for Carol Batchelder!! We atheists may be low in numbers, but we have plenty of intestinal fortitude. It is a great feeling to stand up, speak out and uphold our convictions. The battle to save the wall of separation is very much worth putting ourselves in harm's way. Barb R in New Mexico Entered on: Wednesday, December 8th at 8:40AM CST Stephanie Powers El Cajon, California America Oneltlelfe@aol.com I think that Carol was doing the right thing. I think it's about time for people to realize that you have to fight fire with fire. If you hadn't noticed, the religious right is very close to having control of this country, and we all know, nobody but the people involved with it wants that. That may look like they are zealots and fanatics, but they get things done. They are the ones that are listened to. Don't you think it's about time the media and the people had a chance to listen to both sides? We need to start being more vocal about our protests, or by the time we decide to fight for what we believe, what is LAW, it will be to late, and the law won't be there anymore. Carol earned the respect of one person, and I will stop telling myself that it's just not worth it, because she showed that sometimes being the only different one in a crowd can get you just as much attention as the crowd itself is getting. Entered on: Monday, December 13th at 4:31PM CST Jeremy Laughlin Boise, ID USA I walked in support of the cross. I saw Carol and so did everyone else walking. She wasn't the only atheist there, although she was the only one not throwing unrepeatable comments our way. Just as Carol can express herself, the cross can be an expression from private land. The ruling in California regarding Mt. Davidson shows this. Some of the other comments in this forum show an understanding that Carol wouldn't have done this without feeling safe. This is definitely a comment on Boise's tolerance and openness to diversity. We are also very strong advocates of private property. Entered on: Tuesday, January 11th at 11:19AM CST Larry Butler Boise Idaho USA hans_1949@hotmail.com The Cross Of Boise will Stay as all the Crosses in the world will now stay..The insanity stops here in Boise, Idaho..No more of small fractions of left wingers or non-believers in God will stop the Awareness that people are finally feeling..It has to cease here..Majority will rule once more..So get thicker skins because I am here to stop it. I will fight to keep what is Right, Moral and Just. Larry Butler (The Cross Man+) Entered on: Sunday, February 13th at 11:32AM CST Chris Miller Westervelt, Illinois United States Skatewild@hotmail.com how can so many people believe in god anyway its just seems to me like a story that people have made other people believe from many years ago. All religion seems like to me is a bunch of people getteng brainwashed into believing that theres something more important to them than life itself, something that is looking down on everyone and controlling peoples lives, that doesn't sound good to me the only person i want controlling my life is me. Entered on: Friday, June 2nd at 6:08PM CDT [return to top of board] ![[top]](/uparrow.gif){kind=small}
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